Thursday, March 26, 2009

Ok That Tears It - 4E and I are Done!

I came to the stunning realization today that in 4E even an ADULT red dragon can't take down a lowly 3rd level fighter by breathing on him - even with a good damage roll. I could care less about the design decisions behind this. The fact just sticks in my craw. The game is called Dungeons & DRAGONS after all

Time to eBay my 4E books. I just wish that I hadn't gotten rid of all my 3.5 books, except for my Player's Handbook. Most of them are wicked expensive on the secondary market. *SIGH*

23 comments:

jamused said...

If you want 3.5 you might be interested in the Paizo Pathfinder thingy. You can get the OGL portion of it free from their site to check it out. And the non-OGL stuff may still be cheaper than trying to get the 3.5 books on Ebay...

Wyatt said...

*shrugs* That seems like a weird straw to break the camel's back, but whatver suits you best. You can always download the Pathfinder beta and get the 3.5 core packaged for free there.

Phaezen said...

Odd reason for not likeing 4E. With its action points and other attacks the dragon will still make a meal out of a 3rd level party, it might not be able to one shot them if it gets surprise and or initiave as in previous editions, but this gives the dm an out to turn it into a negotiation instead of an accidental tpk.

Mastro said...

Not trying to flame, but your post pisses me off. You made the statement "The game is called Dungeons & DRAGONS after all". To me having a dragon more approachable at lower levels means that you can have your players up against them at lower levels therefore you do get more "Dragons" in play.

I think that in looking at the play strategy of an adult red dragon you can see that it can certainly be deadly able to dish out 76 points of damage in one round by using its breath weapon and then spending an action point and using double attack with claws.

Seriously if your a dm that is looking to kill your players with one hit then i don't think your players will really want to stay on your table. That isn't what the game is about.

"oh i am mad i can't kill my players with one hit"

"I love to play god"

i mean wouldn't you love to use a dragon at lower levels of play and not wait till characters are lvl 30?

The design decision is that you can use them now at a lower level or if you want, monsters are so easy to modify that you can just say the breath weapon does more and make it a more difficult creature

I mean seriously why would your decision to stop playing a game be because a lvl 15 creature can't one off a lvl 3 player? I can guarantee that the lvl 3 player if he came up on a dragon he is going to get smoked. He is going to run. He is going to have to run or be dinner.

Red Jason said...

Lame. 4th Edition is sooo much more fun.

M.gunnerQuist said...

I had high hopes for 4e. But I came to the same realizations as you. Now I'm running a 1e/OSRIC sandbox campaign with a tent pole mega-dungeon. Combat is fast and loose. No skill rolls. Far more reliance on improvisational role-playing. No railroad adventure paths. Just DM, players, and the dungeon. And some dragons.

Tim Jensen said...

Why not just customize that dragon (see DMG page 174)?

anonynos said...

Heh... I think it's more that you don't understand 4E (to riff off your twitter comment)... ;)

There is no "lowly 3rd level" fighter in 4E, really. You're sorta already "heroic"... which, admittedly, isn't for everyone but is something I like. My sweet spot of levels in 3.x were always the 5-12 range anyways.

Spike Page said...

Far be it from me to throw any more fuel on the fire that is the "Edition Wars", but have you considered trying any of the free retro-clones out there? Having been a 3.0 player, I was a skeptic too at first, but I think you might like some of the old-school games. If they aren't your cuppa-tea, at least you're not out any more money.

For what it's worth, my 3rd level Oe-style character almost got her butt killed by a common gnoll once. A dragon would have her for a snack on whole-wheat with mustard and pickles.

Spike Page said...

And I append my previous comment with an apology. Having just read further back in your blog's archives, I see you're already familiar with old-school gaming and have had much nice things to say about it.

I do hope you find the game that works best for you, whichever edition that may be.

taichara said...

Damn. That's ... kind of mind-blowing.

Is it a lack of raw breath damage, or some concatenation of saves and resistance or some other such thing? I don't play 4e, so have no idea.

Darvin said...

I kept all my old 2nd and 3/3.5 books, much to my wife's dismay. And have a core set of 4th.

Only advice I could give, is maybe swap out the 2d12 for 4d6, if that doesn't help any, maybe increase it by an additional 2d6. You are the DM afterall.

Dave The Game said...

If you're going to quit, do it, but please stop posting two paragraph rants without content if you want to remain on the Network.

Zachary The First said...

Well, the good news is there's about 5000 other fantasy RPGs out there waiting to be discovered or played--assuming you have a gaming group willing to give them a try.

Anonymous said...

If you're going to quit, do it, but please stop posting two paragraph rants without content if you want to remain on the Network.

Dave doesn't like your free stuff. Maybe he'll mention it to your supervisor?

AnthonyRoberson said...

Dave doesn't like your free stuff. Maybe he'll mention it to your supervisor?

Huh? I don't get this at all...

Anonymous said...

For crying out loud. Wyatt S. of Spirits of Eden wrote a short post on why he wasn't going ahead with the PHB II. Its not like Anthony said "D&D IS THE WORST GAME EVAR!!!" and that was it. It was short, but he gave his reason. Whether you agree with it or not, 4e/other edition split is a big topic of discussion right now, and I'm sure he felt like it was just as valid as any other blog post.

Then again, Dave, maybe the fact that you're getting freebies from WotC like the PHB II makes you a little less open to criticism of their game, eh? Seems like the inner circle of RPG Bloggers all is pretty tight with WotC.

Rob said...

I think Anonymous was defending you from Dave the Game's comment about getting you kicked off the RPG Bloggers Network. Namely, by pointing out that you are not getting paid to do this and that it's not like Dave can complain to your "supervisor" because this isn't a job... it is a hobby.

Anyway, I don't agree with you on 4E. My favorite game the Lords of Tyr are playing at the moment is a 4E D&D game. The combats are quick and interesting, the role-playing is top notch, and the ongoing story has me engaged and waiting for more.

Of course, the second favorite game I am playing in at the moment is a 3E D&D game, so maybe that is less a function of what edition I am playing and more of a function of who I am playing with.

I know a lot of people suggested Pathfinder for you, which is a good choice. You also might consider Green Ronin's True20 RPG. The main book is a bit bare bones, but that is just because they are trying to keep it as generic as possible. Later books flesh it out.

Good luck in finding a game system that suits your needs!

Sincerely,

Rob a.k.a A Hero Twice a Month

Nicholas DiPetrillo said...

It takes a bold man to anonymously attack someones honor and claim that they are for sale for a $35 book.

There is no grand conspiracy here to fleece you, Anonymous. There are no back alley payments. Anything that appears under the RPG Bloggers Network reflects on Dave because he runs it. The value of his good name and good service obviously matters to Dave, as it should to anyone who actually uses a name.

Dave The Game said...

Anonymous (if that is your real name),

First, I don't get paid to run RPG Bloggers either, a free service that I have poured hundreds of hours into for little reward. The owner of this blog signed up to provide consistent quality content to contribute to the network in exchange for increased traffic and exposure. Not that it's your business, but it wasn't the fact that it was a short post, it was the fact that it was a consistent amount of short posts (and topic had nothing to do with it). The article after this is much, much better.

If you have an issue about how the network is run, you can bring it to me or the board directly, or post on your own blog, or start your own network. There are dozens of anti-4e blogs on there that contribute plenty of quality content (including more edition war posts), so if you think we're biased, I suggest starting your own network, and then you too can get complained at for the tons of free work you do to help other people.

Anthony, I owe you an apology. In the future I'll be sure to pass such notes privately, and I'm sorry that your comments to this post have become so derailed. I'm looking forward to more content like the KOTDT review that comes after this.

AnthonyRoberson said...

Dave, I appreciate it. I will do my very best to provide quaity RPG content in this blog for the future!

AnthonyRoberson said...

I am locking down any more comments on this post. I don't want things to get any uglier than they already have...

GoodIdea said...

I pretty much agree with Anthony's comments. I'm also a 30+ year gamer.

I'm still playtesting 4E, so it's not like my gaming group hasn't tried it. We just don't like it.

I think gaming groups with lots of fighters, rogues, and rangers will like 4E. I think gaming groups with lots of clerics and wizards will not like 4E.

The roleplaying aspect of both games is the same. I don't know how anyone could say the roleplaying is better or worse in 4E. Your players are your players.